Are Christians Being Persecuted?

Or Just Whining a Lot?

A blog question on ChristianNet.com got some curious responses:

Do you believe that at some time in the near future there will be persecution in America for being a Christian and why?


It is already happening. The slow process of taking God and prayer out of schools and public places and the push to remove his name from money, courts, constitution and the removing of crosses from public places along with christmas nativity scenes from parks are all beginnings of persecution. One model Federal prison has removed Bibles from the facility and if prisoners speak the name Jesus, the spend time in the hole. This will spread to all prisons. We may be unable to buy Bibles someday.



In North Korea they are forced to worship their leader, Kim Jong 'Ill.' Anyone possessing a Bible is shot, I believe that is persecution.In America the future persecution will come from those who are intolerant of those who believe different than themselves. Look for those who write, publish attacks on other religions, en masse. The rhetorical attack today will turn into the real physical attacks, tomorrow.


This second place I worked. A 18 yr old girl came to apply for a job. She told the owner up front that she did'nt wear pants. He told her that it was ok. At the second interview he told her he could'nt hire her unless she wore pants.It was a hostess job. She left. I was proud of this young person for standing up for what she believed. Many just give in to the pressure.


Man could I already write a book on this. The few of us whom God has chosen into a close relationship with Him oh my goodness does the Devil hate us. And unbelievers are so silly they do not know when Satan is using them against God's people. We as true believers are suppose to have compassion for the lost, and I do. +++


Real Christians in America are already being persecuted, and we have been for many years. We are used and abused, have our familes taken away, our lives destoyed, forced to pay extortion, lose jobs, etc. only because we are Christian.


Yes, these are real responses. Yes, some of them don't make sense ("forced to pay extortion"?). And persecution will come "from those who are intolerant of those who believe different than themselves". Huh? Does this one actually believe that his religion is tolerant? Of other religions? Let's take a free history course in Western Civilization shall we?


Persecution: A program or campaign to subjugate or eliminate a specific group of people. That includes:


Romans against Christians (60 CE sporadically until @305CE)
Christians against Jews (325 CE until...)
Christians against pagans (325 CE until...)
Christians against Muslims and Jews (9 Crusades)
Christians against Christians (esp. 30 Years War)
Christians against Meso and Native Americans ("heathens")
Christians against Chinese-Americans ("The Yellow Peril")
Christians against Japanese-Americans (WWII)
Christians against Gays and Lesbians
Christians against Harry Potter
Christians against Muslims (again)


That's quite a track record. And there's all those groups Christians dislike: feminists, atheists, agnostics, Freemasons as well as the 29,999 other denominations who "don't think like them."

Persecution? Some people have forgotten the meaning of the word.

An auto de fe or mass burning of witches

Einstein and Religion

Originally uploaded by James W Bell

Einstein published a paper in Nature in 1940 entitled "Science and Religion" which gave his views on the subject.: " Accordingly a religious person is devout in the sense that he has no doubt of the significance of those super-personal objects and goals which neither require nor are capable of rational foundation … In this sense religion is the age-old endeavour of mankind to become clearly and completely conscious of these values and goals, and constantly to strengthen their effects." Also: He argued that conflicts between science and religion "have all sprung from fatal errors." "Even though the realms of religion and science in themselves are clearly marked off from each other" there are "strong reciprocal relationships and dependencies … science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind … a legitimate conflict between science and religion cannot exist."

Fundamentalist Women: Lower than...

Just About Everybody Else

As an observer of religion I can honestly say that I wasn't as shocked about the Eldorado situation* as many people were. The size of it did make me angry, though: it was a way of saying that religious people will always give some leeway to anything that has the name of Jesus Christ in its title. Let's face it, a lot of people must have known what was happening. And not just "regular" Mormons. And while this blog alludes to the mental inadequacies of the Religious Right, they can't all be complete morons (yes, you read that right...ssshhh!). To be sure, there will be articles and speeches given about the heinousness of the Eldorado compound, but it will be difficult to separate the righteous from the self-righteous. The latter will be oozing out of the woodwork for a long time.


So I still have to ask: why was it a 16 year-old escapee who had to blow the whistle? Couldn't some upstanding adult "Christian" have done it long ago? Carolyn Jessop did, but why wasn't her book given a more substantial readership? Of course, now it will soar to the top of the bestseller lists - the secular ones - and make Carolyn Jessop look like either a martyr or an opportunist (I don't think she would want either role).


"I was outraged to find that child abuse and child marriage is allowed to go largely unpunished in the US and Canada. The communities claim that polygamy is a religious matter, whereas escapees have a different story - tales of institutionalzed child abuse, rape, incest, beatings, lack of education and brainwashing. Women, once married (most likely to a man considerably older who they have not chosen), are expected to bear one child a year. The husbands rarely earn enough to support their large families, so they depend on welfare because the mothers are not legally married, and therefore qualify as "single mothers." They believe that using the government's funds - or "bleeding the beast" as they call it - is a divine duty of theirs.Needless to say, I jumped for joy when Warren Jeffs was arrested! Also, I recently saw a documentary called "Banking On Heaven", that said the Mormon Church's official law firm was the same used by the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints, who practice the child marriage and polygamy the Mormon hierarchy claim they oppose." Note: Jessop obviously knows that opposing something and looking the other way are two very different things - but their lawyers pretend not to know that. (Ephasis and red lettering my own)



"Bleeding the Beast" sounds strangely sexual. I wonder what Tony Perkins is going to say about it? Family Research Council will have to do some amazing tightrope work: "Freedom of religion and bilking taxpayers - hurry! we have to sew them together somehow!"


And everywhere the plight of women will be questioned.

Yes, we should question it, but wasn't that already done - some 30-40 years ago? Essentially fundamentalist groups like the Southern Baptist Convention are still in the process of coming out from beneath their rocks and allowing women to have a (small) voice within their societies. Not one of the have a "too little too late" attitude either. Instead, they wait for groups like the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (or FLDS) to insult what little progress has been made by and for women. "But look how wonderful we are, ah, in comparison to them!!" It doesn't dawn on them that the words they will use - "small sect" and "cult"- might be traced back to them because every one of them could be subjectively called a sect since it is primarily is tangental: it goes off on its own because of some doctrinal discrepancy. Taken as a whole, all 30,000 denominations make Christianity look quite stupid: a sect's chief feature being that everyone within the sect must feel that they and they alone possess the Truth. Righteous arrogance abounds. Belief is NOT relative in any way. This stance puts their (especially American) noses so far up into the air that they are in danger of colliding with satellites.


And the plight of women will be buried in the details.


Thirty thousand denominations. OMG! With that many groups do you think one just might have it right? Nah, because according to each one, the other 29,999 are wrong.

So how are the women in these pictures different?

*I call it a "situation" because there is no apt way of describing it.

What Fundamentalists REALLY See!

Under Those Pioneer Dowdies and Burkas

Happy Birthday Hef!

While most fundamentalists can't even conceive of a woman being a Playboy Bunny (at least they aren't suppoed to) they'll bemoan women being used as sex objects. But what if the woman pictured was a virgin (gasp!), liked what she was doing (gasp! gasp!) was doing it while she was getting her masters in elementary education (gasp!gasp!gasp!) and was supporting her (not as supportive but oh so Christian) boyfriend (GASP!! to infinity and beyyoooonnnd!).

Of course, pre-judging is what fundamentalists do best. If they're not in Hypocrisy Land, they're saving up for tickets and dreaming about it...

And They Dream of the Apocalpse - For Relief?

"Once you go into the compound, you don't ever leave it."

- Carolyn Jessop, one of the wives of the alleged leader of the Eldorado complex

We've had to take a day away from blogging because we're trying to digest entirely what happened at "Eldorado"

We'll be back tommorrow.

The Deadliest Combination: Guns, Liquor and ...Charlton Heston

And we're addicted to all three!

No Moses didn't die, but some people will weep as if he did. Charlton Heston was a very fine actor who backed some worthy causes (Civil Rights) and some unworthy causes (the NRA). Some people began to think that, later in life, Heston came to see himself as more of a Moses of the middle-lass white man. This is what he had to say:

"...the God fearing, law-abiding, Caucasian, middle- class Protestant-or even worse, evangelical Christian, Midwestern or Southern- or even worse, rural, apparently straight-or even worse, admitted heterosexuals, gun-owning-or even worse, NRA-card-carrying, average working stiff-or even worse, male working stiff-because, not only don’t you count, you are a down-right obstacle to social progress. Your voice deserves a lower decibel level, your opinion is less enlightened, your media access is insignificant, and frankly, mister, you need to wake up, wise up, and learn a little something from your new-America and until you do, would you mind shutting up?"

He certainly followed the evangelical role in distancing himself from unpopular ideologies.*

Our earlier post about guns laid out some hypotheses that Heston would have disagreed with.

Here are some additional ones:

In 2004:

- 846 suicides involving young people 10-19 years old - and a significant amount of those were gay and lesbian teens.
- Firearm homicide was the leading cause of death among young black males.

- The casualty rate for young people (19 and under) was one every three hours.

Again, Charlton Heston was a great actor.

I just don't think he would like living next to me.

Heston parting the Red Sea. Then ... and now.

Well, we couldn't afford a bridge (that says something about our infrastructure!)

And now...

Happy 21st Amendment Day! This is one example of how difficult it is to legislate health and welfare by forcibly taking away something that we've enjoyed for thousands of years.

Help celebrate today - get wet responsibly

*In 1995, Heston denied a claim by Ben-Hur screenwriter Gore Vidal that there is a gay subtext to the film. Vidal says he wrote the script with such an implication, but never mentioned the subtext to Heston [though he did so to Stephen Boyd who played Ben-Hur's friend Messala].

Gunless: The Religion of Those Filthy Progressives!

Hmmm....I Wonder Why?

Cruising the net the other day, I saw a link to the CBS online presentation of "Guns in America". It's a rather cool interactive site where, among other things, you can find out which states have the highest/lowest rate of deaths due to guns. Check it out - it's a real eye-opener. I was able to come up with a rather surprising correlation: the more "secular" and religiously diverse states had lower rates than the so-called "Judeo-Christian Values" states:

National rate of deaths related to firearms: 10.3 per ten thousand

Massachusetts: 3.2 - of course, they prefer public burnings. New Jersey: 4.8 - few outsiders (and as Rosane Rosanadana said: "Mr. Feder, this young King Tut is dead. Don't make matters worse for him by makin' him go to New Jersey!"). New York: 5.2 "...your poor and huddled masses..." are too busy standing and waving outside the Today Show's studio. Illinois: 9.3 Chicago gave up playing the violin years ago. Washington 9.4 - the populace only shoots the chipunks on Mount St Helen. California: 9.7 - Surfers have gotten way too mello, dude. Pennsylvania: 10 - South Philly is being "gentrified."

Now look at these:

Texas: 10.6. - actually very low since everyone is socially required to carry a gun. Georgia: 13.3 - It's all those Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil Savannah town squares (and their Voodoo). West Virginia: 15.0 - One word: Deliverance. Tennessee: 15.6 - What do you expect from the last state to ratify the 15th Amendment (in 1997!!?) Alabama: 16.2 - Poverty and Boredom. Arkansas: 16.3 - Ditto. Louisiana: 19.0 - Luring people to the bayou and its 'gators just takes too long.

The lowest: Hawaii at 2.9 - Well so much for the image of Hawaii 5-0

And THE Highest rate of deaths due to firearms: (drum roll, please)

District of Columbia at 34.3!

That's an awful lot of political potshots! Can't fault the administration for not supporting the NRA! The highest states also have the most lax guns laws. There's a big difference between "shall issue" states and "may issue" states as far as concealed weapons are concerned. Other aspects to consider: 1. purchase limitations 2. licensing 3. possession by minors 4. gun storage and 5. waiting period. So with over 19 deaths per 10,000, let's look at Louisiana's laws:

1. Louisiana is a "shall issue" state: guns can be sold to anyone who isn't a convicted felon
2. There are no purchase limitations
3. While no minor under 17 can obtain a license for a handgun without parental permission, there are no age limitations on possessing rifles or shotguns
4. There is no child access provision (CAP) or storage law in this state
5. There is no waiting period to acquire a handgun or shotgun

Oh, and BTW: those states with the highest rates also have the largest concentrations of churches and the fewest number of denominations. So it might actually be safe to say that the NRA has quite a lucrative tie to ..... The Southern Baptist Convention! Mercy! Who would have thought....?

So the next time an SBC minister says he can shoot your evolution ideas full of holes - run for cover!

"Child's Play" in the South